Dmitry Evgrafov, composer, sound designer and co-founder of the Endel app, agrees that the noise around each of us has become intolerable. On the street, in shops, cafes, cars and even trains, we are surrounded by sounds that most often burst into our reality without asking for any permission to do so. Is it possible to fight this, and if so, how is it - a good question, and it is difficult not to ask a musician. Having met in the Richter space, of which Evgrafov was a member of the musical residence this summer, we discussed the new project of Endel and Canadian singer Grimes, the issue of demonizing artificial intelligence and its impact on the music industry today and in the future, recalled the recent Surrender album and talked about the overabundance of content …
Assuming that you need to tell a person about the Endel project who doesn't know anything about it yet, how would you formulate the answer to the question: "Who are you?"
We are a music technology company that makes functional generative soundscapes for relaxation, focus, sleep. And we do this with the help of artificial intelligence, some kind of generative techniques that were in part inspired by the second half of the 20th century, the academic music of Steve Reich, Terry Riley and other composers. Over time, we began to look more deeply into this, because once, at the beginning, we did not understand anything, we just wanted to create personalized music. We adapt the sound to the time of day, to circadian rhythms, to various objective and subjective variables. And we see how the music comes to life, it transforms and adapts to you. If you have a certain passion, for example, for one key or one particular move, then the algorithm will generate them in response, it will have your stroke,despite the fact that it is rather strongly disintegrated and restructured.
You recently released a project with Grimes, came up with a digital lullaby. It is, of course, spectacular when a Russian team team up with one of the main pop music futurists.
In general, our plan to collaborate with some artist has matured for a long time, we wanted to try the technology we are building from this angle. We are not scientists and not that programmers, although we have programmers and engineers in our team, but I am a composer myself, and our company employs artists. I approached this project exactly as a musician and saw a lot of flexibility and some kind of metamorphosis through Endel. There is a long history. We were in Los Angeles at an IT accelerator in 2018 and then in 2019 we lived there for several months and talked to a lot of people. Los Angeles is the unofficial capital of the music industry. We made some kind of acquaintances, as is usually the case, and it turned out that there were common contacts. And in the end - the topic just asked for it, itself arose, because Grimes recently had a child. And we came to the pointthat it would be interesting to try to implement such a story together.
© Vika Bogodarskaya
How did you work with Grimes after you became convinced of the mutual interest?
From the sleep side, we already had a base, so we understood what exactly was needed. We talked with her and discussed what kind of variant we would like, roughly speaking, outlined the musical intonation. In fact, we gave quite strict instructions about the music, because it must be cut in a certain way, it must be served in a certain way, so that our engine "digests" it all. You can't take any song that he cuts himself - that doesn't work. This is all manual labor, we worked hard on it. Grimes sent everything right the first time. When some technical problems go away, creativity begins. We really enjoyed working on the material. In general, the birth of something new is amazing. We really liked the result that came out the first time, without preparation, without everything. We worked for two years to develop these guidelines and learn by ourselves, but she did it the first time. And the rest of the communication consisted only in correcting: “Can you please get a little of these sounds, these ones,” because we saw the big picture, but at that stage she had no opportunity.
Artificial intelligence, which we cannot remove from the equation, what role did it play in this case?
There is a certain mythologization, even demonization of artificial intelligence. Of course, this is a double-edged sword, and it is important which hands it falls into. If he finds himself in rather formal conditions, where people are in white coats, then the exit turns out to be very cold, just square, there is nothing musical. And if you perceive it as a toy, as a certain additional tool in the musical arsenal, then magic begins, interest and play, interaction begins, and this becomes a good help. I can't make 100 tunes in 10 seconds, but he can. Of course, you have to tweak them too, and curation is the most important part. We have already realized at Endel that manual labor is the most important thing when working with artificial intelligence. That is why we are different, apparently, from other startups in this series.
And what about the demonization of artificial intelligence that you mentioned?
We had time to think about it. This is also another role, which seems to me personally as a composer … not absurd, but contradictory. I am a bit of a traitor in a sense. (Laughs.) There are many predictions on this topic, we now see that there are several startups, several applications that make music. Not very good quality - you just press a button, set the length, set the mood, where is the decline, where is the rise, and it will make a composition for you in ten seconds. Sound not very good, not very professional. There are some helpers for the musician - for example, to isolate the voice in the composition, to remove some rustles, because the neural network was taught to perceive tonal information, and it removes it. Such simple tasks are performed very well. In the next ten years, I think production music will be the first to fall,trailer music too … Not that it will fall, but it will just become a cheap replacement. And the problem here is that such music will not become super-quality, but there will simply be brands that will find a specific financial benefit in using neural music, because it costs five times more to license real composers. You don't need to think about rotation, about updated playlists, but just some kind of motor makes endless music, and that's it. I think so.but just some kind of motor makes endless music, that's all. I think so.but just some kind of motor makes endless music, that's all. I think so.
That is, if I understand correctly, there will be more such averaged music. If we keep thinking, isn't it a problem that we can just get used to it?
This is where the problem begins. It really is possible. It is not the neural network that will rise to the level of human taste, but human taste will learn from the bad - this may be a problem for me personally. I have not seen anything like this anywhere, but I have concerns. Music is a very multi-tiered process that requires short, medium and long term thinking and memory. The neural network quickly forgets that it was just playing, it simply does not have memory yet. If there is a sufficiently complex, complex system - and it just does not appear like that - then some interested parties are needed. Ultimately, the music industry is not that big, in my opinion, about $ 15 billion, and here either some player is needed whose interest goes beyond the purely research framework, or it will somehow naturally come to this. I don't know, and no one yet, probablydoes not know.
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That is, for you, a neural network is, first of all, a tool. There is no desire to brag about them, if I may say so? Indeed, today, as soon as you start talking about the use of artificial intelligence, the level of attention immediately rises.
We have come to the conclusion that we should not use this technology just to flaunt it. We use it quite definitely, not all sounds are generated in this way, not in all modes, not every minute of time, but at the same time it helps us where we need it. It is known that melodies, for example, run out, but there is a machine that makes endless melodies. When there are some problems with chords, not to do the same 50 times variations on the same chords, the neural network gives options. It seems that she is communicating with you.
Let's talk about your musical everyday life not in the context of Endel, but in the context of your own creativity. It seems that most composers, always and today, are such lonely heroes. Is it the same for you? Or did Endel teach you teamwork?
My attitude changed a lot during the process of working on the album that came out this summer, called Surrender. In general, I adhered to and nurtured the image of the composer in myself as a kind of hero, a romantic character who sits and makes music for himself. Roughly speaking, he is a loner. Over time, and primarily because of this, I began to perfectly understand the power of delegation, the power of communication, the power of teamwork. This is unusual for me myself, I made instrumental music, and there are many pianos, and only one person can play the piano. (Laughs.) It's very convenient, it's a very rich instrument in terms of the fact that you have bass, mids and highs, you can do a lot of voices, you can do anything, and you don't need anyone. And when you start working a little differently,interested in a slightly wider range of manifestations in music.
I can't make 100 tunes in 10 seconds, but he can.
Did a few dozen people work on your album this time?
Yes, more than 20. It is completely different, but at the same time my experience somehow migrated into it. This is a study, including through other people's thoughts. This requires some kind of delegation, even surrender. Hence the word - Surrender. Surrender is to surrender. The first thought, of course, is this: "Okay, a double quartet worked on my album, several guest musicians, two arrangers, someone consulted, so I should be less capitalized in this whole story." The romantic hero says, "Of course, less." But it turns out that there is actually more. Because through more competent hands, it becomes possible to do something that I originally wanted. Everyone goes through this, and it is very interesting for me to see the roll call in millions of different sources on this topic, that I seem to have grown up myself, roughly speaking, I understood myself … (Laughs.) But this is all kindergarten. For example, film composers - they don't even have this question at all. I'm working on one good movie right now, and there is no question of your creative peculiarity. In this burger, you are a leaf of lettuce. And I think that's right.
© Vika Bogodarskaya
It seems to me that there is such an option that a “leaf of lettuce”, working within a given framework, receives not less, but even more freedom of expression, it is born just from limitations. Or not?
This is the point, this is the paradox: this does not mean that your creativity is getting smaller. It just goes to another plane. It becomes unselfish. You just have to know for yourself and remember that you are not the most important here, not only your opinion is important here, not only your freaks. Especially if you are interested in some pieces of iron or music theory. I know people who add some experiments where they are not needed, just to be noticeable. This is what distinguishes a professional from an amateur, probably. A professional will not be out of place to stick out his “I” so that everyone will notice him. But I sit here, I speak as if I know everything directly, but in fact this experience lasts for me only a few years, and I also study and will study. (Laughs) And the Endel example helps a lot. It is an experience of humility in a sense. And the most important thing is that it doesn't make me feel bad, it makes me feel good.
Let's talk about sonic ecology? For Moscow, the topic is, frankly, urgent. We are overwhelmed with sounds almost around the clock. And when, for example, we come to a cafe or a store, we often find that the music plays too loudly there or that the mood simply does not suit the place.
The idea for Endel emerged from this angle, oddly enough. It all started with the fact that Oleg Stavitsky and I worked in parallel on another project, and all the time we were thinking that it would be nice to make music for public spaces. This is a really big trouble. You go into some space, you just want to sit, work, but the music is loud, active, with words. There are studies that say that music with words in the background takes away much more operating memory from you, namely your central processor. You are tuned in to hear the sound beats of your species, and therefore, when someone uses the vocal cords, you need to listen, maybe this is something important. This is evolutionarily hardwired, and this tension sits very deeply. We saw this as a reason to start a startup. Soundscape,which will adapt to the time of day and, which is very important, to the volume of the room, to the number of people, will somehow read it. This was our first idea. It's just that the business model didn't work out, in fact, to be honest. We are still happy with this idea, but this is not possible, unfortunately. It's very difficult to monetize. However, the problem remains, and this is our pain.
How do you cope with it yourself?
Part of the solution is to maintain your mental balance. I can personally say that meditation helps a lot. My wife and I, for example, went through five meditation retreats, and each time after that, the noise in the city is not so noticeable. Yes, you are aware of it, but the emotional reaction is not so strong. Here is this layer, this emotional buffer between you and what is happening to you. That is why, instead of looking for the sources of problems, people try to somehow solve it from their side. Since nobody wants to change music. Therefore, all these meditation apps are popular.
© Vika Bogodarskaya
If we return to the topic of inconsistency between music and place, why is this? The interior is there, the atmosphere is being created, but you just forgot to think about music?
I think this is the same reason new buildings make acid colors: ignorance. Let's not talk about mentality, let's just talk about complexes. Many of us were present at the moment when you sit in some place and suddenly the music is turned off, because everyone is already leaving, and it becomes somehow a little uncomfortable. And now the architects of new buildings are faced with this "a little uneasy". If you make them gray, what will people think? They won't buy houses. What will the boss say? However, we all know that these are the houses that benefit in the long run. This is why the color of everything premium is just black. Have you seen any premium taxi? Just black. That is, the simpler the colors, the less noise, and the correct work with accentuation, very thoughtful, is where the magic begins. There is where the eye rest. And people often do not understand, but I do not think that they are to blame. I have to agree that people compensate for this awkwardness. It's just education and misunderstanding.
You can come to this, can you learn?
I think a good example should be set. Of course you can learn. This is how, in fact, aesthetics can also be learned. Everyone feels it to some extent, but there is a certain level from which you already perceive it differently. Without having traveled to different countries, you would not know what you can do differently, just, perhaps, you would feel at an intuitive level. I even have some dreams, my wife and I - about a quiet place: to open a quiet place where the center will be a calm space, and everything else is secondary. That is, you take a break from the noise. It is impossible to monetize, this is a very philanthropic project.
While the place is vacant, it seems to me. I've heard about some people, but considering 2020, given the profitability of the business, this is not the most mind blowing investment. It should be someone's idea, and for a person it should not be his first business, while a person should be really interested. I can imagine such a project, and this is not something out of the ordinary, but it takes work, and time, and money, unfortunately. And a simple solution of the Endel type, no one bothers us to imagine, in fact. We are open to such collaborations, it is incredibly interesting.
Let's touch on the term "neoclassic", which is constantly attributed to you as a composer and to many colleagues. Explaining that the definition is not entirely correct is how to deal with windmills? Or is it worth it?
I consider myself just an instrumental musician, an instrumental composer - that's all, that's enough. This immediately cuts out 99 percent of the other music that exists. Yes, neoclassicism is already in the liver, of course. (Laughs.) When you hear this for the 101st time, you already understand that this flow is bigger than you. But I myself will not say this word, do not ask. (Laughs.) If we talk about definitions, I like the term "postclassics" more. It is more accurate. I still think - and I join Martynov (composer Vladimir Martynov - note by RBC Style) that the era of classical composition has already passed. She left, but that does not mean that this music no longer exists, no one makes it. Yes, there are composers who exactly academically continue the history of succession, pass the baton. They exist and they are not very popular,I mean popularity in a broad sense. But if I say so, then my music that I do is post-classical. I have a bunch of stuff in there: drums, bass guitar, whatever. It's just instrumental music. It's interesting for me to be myself, to explore some boundaries of genres, of what is allowed.
© Vika Bogodarskaya
Can we say that these boundaries are now shifting, changing?
Now every day new genres are being created, every composer now, every musician - I mean a prominent one - has his own genre. Take Grimes - is she doing shoegaze? No, not shoegaze. Does she dream pop? No, not dream-pop, of course. She's Grimes, nothing more and nothing less. And that's okay, I think. This is the era when you can do whatever you want. There are certain boundaries, the Morgenstern scale is such that one cannot fall below. (Laughs.) But this is already a moral boundary rather than a creative one. At the same time, I really want to, it is very interesting sometimes to solve, for example, some secret of Schoenberg. Or Messiaen is very interesting to me. I tried to figure out how to make such an ambivalent beauty, how it is possible at all. Stockhausen - that's where to dig and dig. I didn't dig deep, but where I tried is very interesting. Listening - just sitting down and putting on - is impossible, this is a different listening pattern, another pattern of behavior in general during listening. Of course, this is obvious enough. And these different types of listening, different approaches are multiplying, their diversity is a reality. Like it or not like it, this is reality.
And also our reality is a huge stream of content in all spheres of life. And this also applies to music. How do you feel about these quantities? They scare someone, someone tries to abstract. How are you?
As a composer, this amount of content and music confuses and even scares me. But as a user and as a listener, there is absolutely no, because this means that the Spotify algorithm will just pick me up the most. But let's think about this. More than 40 thousand tracks are uploaded every day to one Spotify - I think the number is even higher now - and about 20% of them have never listened, they have zero listens. This is a terrible figure for me. Because behind each composition, behind each song, there is a person with his own dreams and thoughts. And it is precisely this oversaturation that confuses. As you know, formats changed, and music changed depending on the format. Why three minutes, why is the track five minutes long? Because the earliest records contained two or even one song for five minutes. In general, the maximum was clear. Since then, the whole format has changed,in general, the entire music industry has turned upside down. I do not think that history repeats itself one to one, it, of course, always allows itself to be different, and now we see changes of a small character, but still affecting the perception and format of music. The tracks are getting shorter, the albums are either nothing, or in general, roughly speaking, have logistical value: you just did, made singles, and then put them together, under one name, to sell. Either they become 30-40 tracks and last for a minute or something else. Like Max Richter, in fact, with his eight-hour Sleep. Or, for example, he has four tracks on the last album, four songs, but they are all separated by four or five pieces. And this, of course, is sly, he, of course, understands. Take five times more for one song,you don't seem to notice that the tracks are changing. And the most important thing must happen in the first 40 seconds, so that the person wants to listen to it again, again, and again. It can be seen that the tracks are slightly transformed. And they transform even more if some kind of shift happens. There is a great temptation to put pros and cons, to judge whether it is good or bad - these dualities, but from the point of view of history, of course, this is ridiculous. Given that history loves winners, you may end up in the wrong part. (Laughs.)but from the point of view of history it is, of course, funny. Given that history loves winners, you may end up in the wrong part. (Laughs.)but from the point of view of history it is, of course, funny. Given that history loves winners, you may end up in the wrong part. (Laughs.)
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